I had a wonderful conversation with my new friend, Ellis, about how ADHD and creativity need a different approach, and…well…this is much better watched or listened to, so you can either watch the video here, or you can listen to the episode on the player below, or on your favorite podcast platform.
If reading is still your favorite, you can also click below to read the transcript of the whole thing.
Transcript:
00:00:02:15 – 00:00:28:17
Arianna
Wassup suckas, it’s me. I’m back. I have a cold. So does my my friend that you’re going to meet today. So this is going to be the best video ever. Obviously. So much fun. We are going to be having a really cool conversation today. About the creative process for ADHD years and people with neuro divergence because I think that that’s really important.
00:00:30:01 – 00:00:47:16
Arianna
And with me to talk with me about that is my friend Ellis Prybylski. Yeah, I did. I did it. I did it again. Twice. I did it right, guys, and I wanted to put that down. And Ellis, why don’t you introduce yourself, kind of talk about where you’re coming from on all this.
00:00:48:10 – 00:01:10:13
Ellis
Well, creatively speaking, I’ve been a professional book editor for about 15 years. I’m an author. I’ve done book publishing. I’m also a musician, longtime, position of being a violinist for about 30 years. So I’m kind of all over the creative process. I just do maps like I’m if it’s creative, I’m probably like up to my eyeballs. I’m also like, I have ADHD and I have autism.
00:01:10:14 – 00:01:25:18
Ellis
Both were diagnosed in November of last year. I know I had ADHD my entire life, but the autism came as a bit of a surprise. And I also do a whole bunch of other stuff, including historical reenactment and fiber arts and all sorts of things.
00:01:25:19 – 00:01:36:05
Arianna
So see, we have conversations, but I didn’t know like half of that shit. So you’ve already surprised me. I’m like violinist? Reenactments? What?
00:01:36:09 – 00:01:47:10
Ellis
Hold on. Actually, this past weekend, I spent the entire weekend playing with swords in a Civil War era fort where we were fencing each other up and down like hallways and it was amazing.
00:01:47:18 – 00:01:54:16
Arianna
Very much more interesting weekend than I did. There were no swords involved in my weekend watch. Oh, there should be.
00:01:54:16 – 00:01:55:14
Ellis
You should add some.
00:01:56:04 – 00:01:58:10
Arianna
Not but I also have small children, so.
00:01:58:12 – 00:02:00:14
Ellis
I mean, the swords that I was playing with were blunt.
00:02:00:21 – 00:02:02:13
Arianna
Oh, OK. All right.
00:02:02:19 – 00:02:07:13
Ellis
We are using, like, live steel swords. We want to kill our friends, not hurt them. This is the.
00:02:08:22 – 00:02:10:22
Arianna
Did you get that backwards? Did you say you want to kill?
00:02:10:22 – 00:02:15:24
Ellis
We want to kill our friends, not hurt them. So I would like to end the bout by killing them, but I don’t want to hurt them in the process.
00:02:15:24 – 00:02:33:03
Arianna
Oh, I got it. OK. And this is actually kind of a really cool like launch into it because the whole reason I wanted to have this conversation with you is you and I have talked a little bit about writing specifically because I’m in the midst of writing a book. And, you know, Ellis has already written how many books have you written knows.
00:02:33:09 – 00:02:37:14
Ellis
How many have I written or how many have I published? Written lots published, too.
00:02:38:17 – 00:02:40:24
Arianna
And I feel like for most writers, there’s a difference.
00:02:42:02 – 00:02:51:10
Ellis
And yeah, there’s a pilot, but I don’t make eye contact with it. Lives in some vicinity of my computer. It’s like, I will eventually finish you and don’t make eye contact because it.
00:02:51:13 – 00:03:22:02
Arianna
Take until I’m ready, until I feel like looking at you so but yeah, you know, I’m working on my second book and like this one, I actually want to get Trout published, and Ellis has been kind enough to kind of share with me their process, and I’m trying to work on my process. And that’s kind of how we got into this conversation because I think that especially when it comes to an artistic process, everybody wants to have this like set idea of what it is we want.
00:03:22:02 – 00:03:26:07
Arianna
We want to feel like we should quote unquote be doing this a certain way.
00:03:26:07 – 00:03:27:15
Ellis
There’s a right way.
00:03:27:15 – 00:03:45:12
Arianna
Exactly. And I feel like it’s really important to talk about this because I have found this the more that I’ve been working on this book and Ellis already knows there is no right way, it just kind of feels like the right way is the right way for you. Like what? Like what would you say your process is?
00:03:46:09 – 00:04:06:11
Ellis
I guess it depends. Like if I’m writing nonfiction, I generally, like, circle around what is the message I’m trying to give? Like, I’m working on a nonfiction series about how to write books and how to publish and market books afterwards. It’s two books right now. They’re going to be published at the same time. And for that I went through and I laid out kind of like we’re taught in high school, you know, thesis statements.
00:04:06:11 – 00:04:27:06
Ellis
Here’s what the chapters use, what the sections of each chapter look like. And then I wrote it for fiction. I use a completely different process because fiction has a rising and falling pattern of action that’s very different from nonfiction. Right? And so I use a tool called The Beat Sheet. It’s well known it’s by a guy named Blake Snyder in his book Save the Cat.
00:04:27:06 – 00:04:43:14
Ellis
He talks about it and there are 15 beats and I write out what the beats are and then kind of play connect the dots between them. But there’s never like one true way. I’m going to be putting a different way of story structure in my books. And the one that I use because I created one because of course.
00:04:44:11 – 00:05:05:16
Arianna
So of course. Of course. Yes, I did. Yes, of course I did. And this is where I find this fascinating because to me that sounds so like laid out and just like wrote. And I don’t mean that in a bad way. I mean, like that sounds like nice and organized. So I want to share with you what my process has turned out to be.
00:05:05:23 – 00:05:17:04
Arianna
My process has turned out to be more like I am a gummed up clogged pipe OK?
00:05:17:04 – 00:05:18:14
Ellis
And a couple times it explodes.
00:05:18:15 – 00:05:41:14
Arianna
Is it I mean, depending on the day lately, yes, probably. But usually what I do is I run the faucet a few times before I start getting the clearer stuff. I get the gunk. So like the first time I sit down, I’m like, I don’t have any idea what I actually want, right? But I’m just going to sit here and I’m going to fart on a page for like, you know, a month and we’re going to see what I get.
00:05:41:22 – 00:05:56:21
Arianna
And usually I finish. It’s like 95 to 100 pages and it’s all bullshit. Nothing. I actually want to. Yeah, exactly. So then I have to toss that. Then the second time I’ll try to be a little bit more. I’ll be like, All right, I feel like I have a little bit more of an idea of where I want to go.
00:05:57:05 – 00:06:11:19
Arianna
Here is kind of and I don’t so much do thesis statements. It’ll just be like, Here are the things I want to touch on and I’ll write it a second time. And then the second time I’ll go through and I’ll be like, All right, I actually like this paragraph in this paragraph, everything else sucks and it’s it in the trash.
00:06:12:01 – 00:06:26:21
Arianna
Generally, I wind up doing about four or five first drafts that way, and I have tried other options, right? Because like, your waste has sounds so much more streamlined. I’ve heard other ways that just sounds so much easier, but it does not work for me.
00:06:26:22 – 00:06:44:23
Ellis
It’s there’s no right. There’s no like wrong. The only wrong way is the one that doesn’t work for you. And if what you’re doing is working for you and you’re getting words on the page and you’re actually making progress towards what you’re trying to accomplish, then your process is fine. There’s nothing wrong with it. Exactly. It’s not getting you where you’re trying to go.
00:06:44:23 – 00:07:04:17
Ellis
That’s when you want to start looking at like, OK, well, what can I do differently to accomplish what I’m trying to accomplish? You’re right. Part of that is also things like studying the writing process, that being things like reading books on the craft of writing, not necessarily trying to do exactly what other authors do but reading books on the craft.
00:07:04:20 – 00:07:26:23
Ellis
You understand what the shape of the whole thing kind of looks like in the broad strokes. Mm hmm. And what kind of stuff usually, like is included in this stuff. Like, for example, for me, I write urban fantasy. So knowing what genre expectations people have, knowing the shape of the rising and falling action, because that is the same no matter what genre you’re writing in and stuff like that, like understanding some of those underpinning structures.
00:07:27:10 – 00:07:43:11
Ellis
And then once you understand those, the rest of it is a lot easier because you kind of have an idea of what the foundation looks like before you do anything else, right? Not necessarily like a specific method of writing. That’s just the understanding, the concepts rather than the specific.
00:07:43:11 – 00:08:03:02
Arianna
Where I was going to go with that actually is I feel that that is especially great for people and I won’t speak to autism. I’m not autistic, but I will say that for ADHD, that’s actually great. We tend to do a lot better when we’re given like just kind of a concept and we’re like Bend that how you will, you know?
00:08:04:02 – 00:08:20:13
Arianna
I’m like, it’s really common for my clients were I’ll give them like one specific thing and I’ll be like, Hey, do this. And they’ll come back and they’ll be like, So I didn’t. I took that concept that you gave me and I actually did this instead, but it works. And they’re like expecting me. And I’m like, No, that’s exactly what you’re supposed to do.
00:08:20:13 – 00:08:46:13
Arianna
Like, you take the concept and you bend it in your brain for how it works for you. So that’s, you know, I love that you pointed that out. Because, yeah, it’s really important when you’re reading a book written by somebody about writing. Don’t take that as a direct guide. Take that as like here my upper level concepts, and here’s how you’re going to turn that into whatever works for you.
00:08:46:13 – 00:09:02:23
Ellis
Yeah. And with autism, it’s kind of like I have both ADHD cartoons, so I can’t speak for somebody who doesn’t have the ADHD part. But for autistic people, I know there’s this habit of like, Well, this person did it this way and this is the way now, and there’s no other options and I guess if I can’t do it this way, I can’t do it.
00:09:03:08 – 00:09:26:07
Ellis
And that’s not actually the case because there are multiple ways to accomplish the same thing like you know, with recipes, right? There are multiple different ways to make spaghetti sauce. If the end is you have a delicious sauce, it’s on spaghetti, you have succeeded. But how you get to that point people have like every Italian grandma you ask is going to have something different and that’s OK.
00:09:26:07 – 00:09:43:21
Ellis
And they’re all amazing and they’re all delicious. So that’s really the thing is if you like. But they all know that, like, you have to have tomatoes as the base. There are some like key things that have to go in there to make it tomato sauce. But other than that, it’s lawless wasteland, no matter how much I know it sounds otherwise.
00:09:44:16 – 00:10:02:22
Arianna
Piggybacking off of that, like honestly using that same analogy, it’s also OK for you to take from those different recipes and wind up making your own damn sauce. Yeah, it is. You know, and I say this a lot when I’m talking about like daily processes for like tasks and productivity and stuff like that. But this goes for the creative process too.
00:10:02:22 – 00:10:19:13
Arianna
I found by my own process, even down to figuring out where I want to write and trying to come up with like a writing routine type thing. It, it all is different pieces that I have stolen from other people I shouldn’t say, yeah, that sounds like you’re.
00:10:19:13 – 00:10:21:24
Ellis
You’re a literary magpie. You’re just, you’re.
00:10:21:24 – 00:10:25:16
Arianna
Just basically this stuff and you’re putting together like, like a mess that works for you.
00:10:25:16 – 00:10:48:13
Ellis
And that’s, that’s that’s what all of us do. That’s what, like, Neil Gaiman tells people to do. So you’re not doing anything that isn’t what we’re all doing because that’s all stories have similar elements because we’re all influenced by what’s around us. And so we’re all, like, pulling things out of media and stuff that we like, which is why pretty much every story that is being told has been told before.
00:10:48:19 – 00:11:02:24
Ellis
It’s just about how you tell it and what words you’re using. Like the book that I’m writing on how to write a book. All of the data points in it have absolute only been shared by other people. In other works, they have been. That’s where I learned them. I didn’t create things in a vacuum.
00:11:03:06 – 00:11:03:14
Arianna
Right?
00:11:03:17 – 00:11:26:24
Ellis
But the way I’m presenting them and the way I’m putting them together is what’s different. And that’s how the same thing with the writing process. Right? Right. A front, whether you’re painting to like all the painting techniques are out there. But how I choose to draw mountains or whatever it is, is still going to be uniquely mine, regardless of who I look at and what other pieces of influence I have.
00:11:27:03 – 00:11:31:19
Ellis
Every time I draw a mountain, it’s still me, it’s still mine, it’s still unique to me.
00:11:32:22 – 00:11:56:10
Arianna
And that’s, you know, part of the reason I want to have this conversation, too, is I feel like a lot of us get kind of caught up in wanting to be different. And I don’t think that we realize that, like, you’re only going to be so different. Like, I forgot exactly who said it, but this is this is kind of like an aside, but this is an ADHD chill.
00:11:56:10 – 00:12:20:19
Arianna
You guys knew what you were getting into but back in the day, I want to say 2013, 2014. There was a song that came out by Robin Thicke called Blurred Lines. And however you feel about that song, they wound up going to court because it was Marvin Gaye’s family. His estate was suing because they said that Blurred Lines sounded a lot like another song of his I think it’s got to give it up, I want to say.
00:12:20:20 – 00:12:39:24
Arianna
But if I’m wrong, I don’t know. Yell at me in the comments, I guess. So while that was happening, somebody wound up saying something that I kind of keep in my head any time that I start feeling worried about not being different enough. And that was basically that they said that there are only so many notes and only so many songs that can be written.
00:12:39:24 – 00:12:47:15
Arianna
Yep. And that’s the truth. You’re going to hear certain lines from a song or certain notes in a certain order.
00:12:47:15 – 00:12:54:13
Ellis
There’s certain intervals that just work and they work and have always worked. And you hear them from like Beethoven to.
00:12:54:22 – 00:12:58:23
Arianna
I don’t know, Betty, what it was. I just heard someone out there. I don’t know.
00:12:58:23 – 00:13:14:13
Ellis
Like, yeah, like there’s certain intervals and certain notes and certain types of like chord structures that you’re going to hear throughout history there. There are only so many shapes of Lego you can use to create your thing. We’re all using the same Legos. 100.
00:13:14:13 – 00:13:33:09
Arianna
Percent. And so in that case, instead of worrying about being different what you should be realizing is because it’s coming from your brain and it’s coming from your mouth, there’s already going to be a different tilt to it. Yeah, but that’s OK. If it’s, if it’s, if it’s similar to something that’s already out there, that’s, that’s just what it’s going to happen.
00:13:33:10 – 00:13:56:17
Ellis
Well, I mean, you could take Lord of the Rings and Star Wars and put them side by side old wizard character, you know, new character going on an adventure, the party that goes. But you can you can create all of these correlations because there are correlation as legit ones. And there’s nothing wrong with that. Like, the thing that I always tell authors is trying to be unique is always going to end up with a crap story.
00:13:56:19 – 00:14:00:23
Ellis
It just is it’s not going to end up with anything good. I mean, I know I’ve never seen.
00:14:00:23 – 00:14:01:24
Arianna
Any, but you’re not wrong.
00:14:02:02 – 00:14:11:00
Ellis
It’s got this really unique idea where it’s like, what we’re talking not in a good way. Not like, oh, that’s cool. But like.
00:14:12:00 – 00:14:14:12
Arianna
I don’t think. Yeah, you know what? I don’t.
00:14:14:14 – 00:14:20:07
Ellis
Yeah, go back. You’re not making it put it in the oven. You know, that’s. That’s not so it’s.
00:14:20:07 – 00:14:21:22
Arianna
Not done yet. Go fix that.
00:14:22:07 – 00:14:36:01
Ellis
Right. And like, the stories that I’m telling, I’ve been told a hundred times and I have no problems admitting that my work is heavily influenced by a combination of Supernatural, Bright and Lucifer.
00:14:36:13 – 00:14:38:15
Arianna
Like all great all great, by the way.
00:14:38:15 – 00:14:57:06
Ellis
It’s literally like it’s its own thing. It absolutely is. But it’s like those three things had a love child, and that’s my book series, and that’s OK. Like, I don’t have I didn’t steal anything from them because it’s still like my husband and I created the setting. This world, these characters, it’s ours. But you’re going to see influences in there.
00:14:57:06 – 00:15:26:07
Ellis
Like, you’re not going to be able to miss them, and that’s OK. The thing that makes it unique is my voice, and that’s the thing that nobody can take from you, like short of. And that’s the thing with editors, right? Doing my job, I can’t take your voice from you unless I rewrite your entire book. So doing things like removing excess instances of that or fixing adverbs or like telling you you’re not allowed to use the same exact sentence structure 50 times in a row, I don’t care if it’s your signature move, it doesn’t work that doesn’t damage your voice.
00:15:26:07 – 00:15:36:24
Ellis
Because your voice is yours. Like, just as you and I sound different than the microphone, just as we look different on camera, our voice is different, period. Our life experiences are different.
00:15:37:16 – 00:16:01:17
Arianna
100%. And that’s, you know, different is and that’s like my biggest thing here. Different is good, different is important. I feel like I don’t need to force it. No. And, you know, I feel like a lot of ADHD channels, a lot of ADHD people, including myself. I think when we first start out, we’re wanting to help people in a way that’s almost trying to make them more neurotypical.
00:16:02:00 – 00:16:03:03
Ellis
Feel like normalize.
00:16:03:03 – 00:16:09:18
Arianna
Yeah. It’s not on purpose. It’s just we’re like, OK, now I know what I’m working with. So now I can figure out a way how I can.
00:16:09:18 – 00:16:10:19
Ellis
Fit into society.
00:16:10:20 – 00:16:16:13
Arianna
Yeah. And then, you know, eventually at some point you’re like, well, why why you know, like.
00:16:17:01 – 00:16:20:02
Ellis
I’m just going to be the horrible bug goblin. I really am.
00:16:20:02 – 00:16:24:13
Arianna
I just like, you know, wander off to the swamp and, you know.
00:16:24:22 – 00:16:26:01
Ellis
Like, sell the.
00:16:26:07 – 00:16:31:20
Arianna
Let’s find somebody. Somebody needs to do it. Why not me? Right? It’s likely, like.
00:16:32:04 – 00:16:49:11
Ellis
My ticktock channel. I have like almost 3000 followers on there, which I know isn’t a huge number, but it’s not nothing. And my tick tock, most of my tick talks are me in my fuzzy bathrobe, like, this is what I wear this is what I wear on camera. It’s cozy and warm and I like it and it’s sensory happy place.
00:16:49:11 – 00:16:56:07
Ellis
And most of my videos are me like making Gremlin comments in a bathrobe. And people look at that and be like, I want to give that person thousands of dollars to edit my book.
00:16:56:16 – 00:16:58:16
Arianna
Yes, that’s fine.
00:16:58:20 – 00:16:59:20
Ellis
That’s what these are for.
00:16:59:22 – 00:17:10:02
Arianna
That’s how you find those people, right? That’s how you find those those right people. That’s how you find the audience for your book. That’s how you find the audience for your videos. You have to be yourself. Like.
00:17:10:11 – 00:17:10:21
Ellis
Right?
00:17:10:23 – 00:17:25:23
Arianna
In my personal example, I you know, I’ve watched YouTube for a while and I finally decided I wanted to do a channel and I was like, OK, but most of the people that I see, they have like some sort of catchphrase or some way that they always open their videos. And I just don’t have anything. So I was like, I’m just going to push record and see what comes out of my mouth.
00:17:25:23 – 00:17:44:18
Arianna
And for some reason, I channeled Mr. T and I was like, What’s up, suckers? Right? And I was like, That’s fine. That works. And once my channel started to pick up a little bit, I got a couple of comments from people who did not like that. One guy was like, I was going to subscribe to you but you called us suckers.
00:17:44:23 – 00:17:51:00
Arianna
And I was like, No, not suckers. There’s no there’s no harder, you know? I was like, No, this is what it’s like. It’s fine.
00:17:51:07 – 00:17:53:22
Ellis
But that’s not your target audience. Like, that’s that’s not your person.
00:17:53:24 – 00:18:10:08
Arianna
But see, this is how we’re the funny thing came in is that exact same day I get a comment on Instagram from someone who said, It’s not a day for me. My day is not complete until you’ve called us suckers in the video. I was like, that’s that’s never going to make everybody happy. It’s just never going to happen.
00:18:10:08 – 00:18:33:00
Ellis
And that’s the thing, like when you’re when you’re writing, when you’re marketing, when you’re doing all these things, you have to think about who your target audience is and your target audience isn’t. Everybody like, it can’t be like my my books are urban fantasy with gay people and neuro divergent people, all kinds of stuff. There are people who will hate everything about my books, and they might just be, you know, they might be people who read exclusively nonfiction.
00:18:33:00 – 00:18:38:21
Ellis
And it’s not personal that they don’t like the content. It’s just like, I don’t like urban fantasy, so I’m not trying to write for them.
00:18:38:21 – 00:18:46:02
Arianna
No. And to write to do that is exhausting. Especially, especially for neurodiversity and me, that’s like because we’re masking it.
00:18:46:02 – 00:19:02:16
Ellis
In the people. Pleasing instinct is hard, and the rejection sense of dysphoria sets in like, well, if they don’t like me, does anybody like me? Oh, my God, I’m awful. Everybody hates me. That’s not true. No. And that’s kind of the thing that’s that’s become my internal dialog. Like, whenever I see something or someone doesn’t like me, it’s like, well, they’re not my target audience.
00:19:02:16 – 00:19:03:21
Ellis
And I keep rolling that.
00:19:03:21 – 00:19:18:15
Arianna
I guess that’s just that. Exactly. It’s not it’s something that I think, you know, because we have had so much about ourselves rejected over time, we just assume that rejection is the standard.
00:19:18:19 – 00:19:20:13
Ellis
It’s the default. Yeah, it’s the default.
00:19:20:13 – 00:19:33:00
Arianna
But it’s not. It’s it’s the fact that it was especially when we were younger, we were under the impression that we had to fit in some place that we didn’t quite fit in.
00:19:33:13 – 00:19:35:24
Ellis
And so such a pecking order. Oh, my God.
00:19:36:03 – 00:19:50:23
Arianna
So we learned. We learned wrongly, but we learned that if I don’t mask, I don’t know, I don’t fit. Right. And so then, you know, when you stop masking and someone’s like, I hate your face, you’re like, oh, my God, I made a mistake. I need to go back. I need.
00:19:50:23 – 00:19:52:22
Ellis
To try. Right. And that’s that’s right.
00:19:53:07 – 00:20:05:20
Arianna
Yeah. And that’s not the case at all, especially when you’re a creative. When you’re creative, the more mask off you are, the more likely you are to find people who need you, who like you, who want to hear from you.
00:20:06:18 – 00:20:21:22
Ellis
You’re going to find the people that you’re going to connect with. And like for me, I kind of with the opposite way. I tried masking for a while in high school, and then I discovered it wasn’t working no matter what I did. So I went aggressively in the opposite direction to say like because I was home schooled for a while.
00:20:21:22 – 00:20:45:19
Ellis
And so I entered high school as this like sweet little fairy flower child. I wanted to wear flower crowns and skip down the hallways barefoot. And I did it. And you know what? I got bullied and beaten up because of it. Because how dare I be a sweet little fairy flower child? Like, how dare I? And and so I went away to another school for a year and came back, and I went aggressively goth, like trenchcoat spikes, chains.
00:20:45:19 – 00:21:08:02
Ellis
And I had this, and I’ve been doing martial arts since I was four, so I employed the Don’t Mess With Me walk. Hey, people partied. They still made fun of me, but they didn’t try and beat me up anymore. So I was like. And I carried that attitude for a long time. And I realize now that that was also kind of a mask, albeit a more less conformist and more like, I will eat your soul.
00:21:08:16 – 00:21:12:23
Arianna
I mean, it stopped people, right? It’s got to do what you got to do. Like.
00:21:13:08 – 00:21:32:13
Ellis
It stopped people from hurting me. But now that I’m almost 40, I’m at the point where I don’t really care if I’m not everybody’s cup of tea because I don’t have to be 100. I don’t there are places in times where I absolutely will like toned down the bug goblin or bug gremlin instincts and become like more normalized in society.
00:21:33:01 – 00:21:36:13
Ellis
But like right now I’m not wrapped in a bathrobe. You’re welcome.
00:21:37:01 – 00:21:40:19
Arianna
I was I was actually kind of feeling a little left out. That’s cool. It’s fine.
00:21:40:20 – 00:21:45:13
Ellis
I mean, if you want me to, I can, but I figured you might want something slightly more professional.
00:21:45:13 – 00:21:54:19
Arianna
Since I’m talking about I’m very much enjoying the grocery shirt, I have to say. So I’m not I’m not disappointed by the outfit. I was just saying, you know.
00:21:56:01 – 00:22:14:21
Ellis
But like, that’s kind of the thing though, is I’ve had to learn, like, there’s a difference between, like, aggressively pushing people away by being yourself on the most out there and in your face. Manner and just embracing who you are. And as creatives, we kind of have to do that embrace because who we are is that creative process.
00:22:14:21 – 00:22:26:11
Ellis
And if we’re rejecting that we’re not going to be able to produce the creative things like it’s or what we do produce is going to be like Hallmark, cookie cutter, all the same kind of miserable stuff because it’s not us.
00:22:26:13 – 00:22:27:08
Arianna
And we’ll hate that.
00:22:27:16 – 00:22:37:20
Ellis
We will hate it. But I mean, and it might sell sometimes, but we’re still it’s going to burn you out like big time. But that’s how you stop being creative and just endure out zone for the rest of time.
00:22:38:06 – 00:23:00:24
Arianna
100%. You know, it kind of makes me think of something that I’m wondering if you’ve noticed this in yourself or another me in Divergent People. I am, and I’ll speak from my own personal experience. So I’m not like feeling like I’m speaking from everybody, but I know that for the longest time I felt like something about me was going to waste, and I couldn’t figure out exactly what it was.
00:23:00:24 – 00:23:16:00
Arianna
And it would lead to some moments where I would feel pretty depressed I’d be like, What is what is wrong with me? Like, why do I constantly feel like there’s like this, you know? And I wrote bad poetry that had, like, comments about fire and the fire was burning, but no one could see, you know.
00:23:16:07 – 00:23:18:12
Ellis
But oh, yeah, I did high school poetry like that.
00:23:18:14 – 00:23:43:07
Arianna
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so, you know, but as an adult, I have not written any more of that poetry, but it wasn’t until I had ADHD and found out that I had it. Like I’ve had it my entire life, obviously. But it wasn’t until I had that diagnosis, I should say, that I realized that the reason I felt that way is because I constantly had this feeling like I was supposed to go down one specific, strict path.
00:23:43:20 – 00:24:03:23
Arianna
And every time I forced myself to do that, I felt like I was avoiding four or five other things that I was interested in or that I wanted to focus on, or that I wanted to like bring into the to the to the process and once I stopped doing that, once I started allowing myself to kind of expand in allowing my brain to pay attention to all the things it wants to pay attention to, I stopped feeling that way.
00:24:03:24 – 00:24:05:12
Arianna
Like, have you have you dealt with that at all?
00:24:05:23 – 00:24:34:15
Ellis
So I was raised by my mom mostly who was diagnosed with ADHD in the 1950s. Wow. She knew I had ADHD and for a large portion from fourth grade to high school, I was homeschooled. So she, she taught me like she taught me how I needed to be taught. Let me just be myself like when I joke about being a bag of Gremlin, that’s because I spent most of the time in my childhood in the bog near my house, up to my eyeballs and mud causing havoc I’d come home and I’d be mud.
00:24:34:22 – 00:25:04:15
Ellis
Like the bug gremlin thing is only so much joke. Joke, right? Half joke, half like mud child and I was ok with that. So I didn’t have the shutting that part of myself off so much as I did. Like part of it, maybe the autism, but I was a combination of bored because in classes I’d make the connections before everybody else did not because I’m smarter or better than anybody else.
00:25:04:15 – 00:25:11:10
Ellis
I mean, maybe, but not because I’m better than anybody, but because one of autism’s things is in ADHD. Things we make connections.
00:25:11:10 – 00:25:12:14
Arianna
Like pattern connection.
00:25:12:14 – 00:25:32:13
Ellis
Yeah, exactly. The pattern recognition and seeing how everything fits together. Like, that’s one of our strong points in our neural wiring. So I’d get to that point and most of the class would be like the teacher slowly trying to lead people that direction. I’d be in the back going, Oh, me, please just do anything. And so I had that problem.
00:25:32:13 – 00:25:57:21
Ellis
So I didn’t so much feel that part of me was being wasted. I felt like I was both at the same time because I always got the not working to full potential feedback from my teachers. Like that was abso like, you know, it’s like not meeting expectations because their expectations were that I was neurotypical and I’m not exactly, but it wasn’t so much that I felt that I wasn’t using parts of myself that I could.
00:25:58:14 – 00:26:20:06
Ellis
It’s that I felt that I was using those things. But I was definitely outside the sphere, like I did not have much for any friends. I was not part of the social scene. Like I’m thinking about going to my 20 year high school reunion. I’m dating myself now and I’m thinking about going back there to be like, Yes, what’s up is here?
00:26:20:06 – 00:26:20:18
Arianna
I am.
00:26:21:23 – 00:26:23:18
Ellis
Remember this because it ain’t change.
00:26:25:16 – 00:26:27:05
Arianna
Exactly the same. Nothing that’s.
00:26:27:05 – 00:26:31:05
Ellis
Exactly the same except bigger, better, and now have books and.
00:26:31:11 – 00:26:32:09
Arianna
Lots of B’s.
00:26:32:18 – 00:26:42:13
Ellis
Yeah, lots of B’s, lots of BS maybe Hornets. Because in this case we’re talking about like aggressive. But I haven’t made that decision yet. Oh.
00:26:43:06 – 00:26:49:08
Arianna
So kind of like our last little thing here, talking about the creative process.
00:26:49:16 – 00:26:50:02
Ellis
Yeah.
00:26:50:09 – 00:27:20:04
Arianna
So say that we have a creative ADHD are out there who is really struggling to find that groove to find what really pushes them to find that motivation that need to to follow their creative. Yeah, you know, whatever. What would you suggest to them? What would be the first step you think that they should take to, to find their creative mojo, so to speak?
00:27:20:13 – 00:27:42:00
Ellis
Most of my knowledge and current focus comes from the sphere of books. So but depending on what your art or creative bent is, I would say first try all the things like that. Write it, try it. Just like if you if you’re trying to figure out what kind of painting you like to do, try the mediums. Just see what kind of painting you like to do.
00:27:42:00 – 00:28:01:03
Ellis
If you want to figure out, like, do I like pottery, try pottery like or do I like this method of pottery? Try different methods because the only way you’re going to know is if you try. And from that there’s that magpie discussion you were having. From that you’re going to find bits and pieces of all these things you like and you’re going to cobble together something that becomes your creative process.
00:28:02:09 – 00:28:08:22
Ellis
So you don’t have to do any one thing. There’s no one true way. And if anybody says there is, they’re trying to sell you that one true way.
00:28:08:22 – 00:28:14:11
Arianna
100%. And it’s probably a lot of money and you don’t really need to pay it like push for it.
00:28:15:01 – 00:28:31:08
Ellis
But like so just try the things. Try all of the things. Like if you think you might like knitting, try knitting something like I’m not suggesting necessarily you buy all of these things like maybe you have a friend with some knitting or crochet needles and you can see if you like it or like just dabble in all of the things.
00:28:31:08 – 00:28:42:12
Ellis
And as you dabble, you’ll find the things that or categories of things that you’re good at. And in there, then you can start developing those skills. But there’s nothing wrong with trying everything.
00:28:42:21 – 00:29:02:04
Arianna
And just to add to that, there’s nothing wrong with trying everything with no expectation because you find that you like painting, but you’re not really that good at it, but you still like it. That’s fine. That’s called a hobby. You suck at hobbies. We feel it has to be a business because we’ve been taught that if we were not making money, it’s not worth.
00:29:02:04 – 00:29:03:12
Ellis
This whole culture. Yeah.
00:29:03:19 – 00:29:23:01
Arianna
Yeah. So that’s bullshit, guys. If you like something and you really want to do it and it doesn’t bring any money in, but it’s just for fun. That’s still fine. You found a hobby. You found something that you can make time to do that is going to make you happy. And that goes for writing, that goes for reenactments.
00:29:23:10 – 00:29:25:21
Arianna
That goes for literally anything. Yeah.
00:29:25:21 – 00:29:46:22
Ellis
Like, I have so many different hobbies that I’ve picked up. I do weaving, spinning, yarn, crochet, knitting. I’m learning to do it all by ending all kinds of, like, all sorts of things. And that’s because I dabble, like, I do cross-stitch, like all sorts of stuff. Like little pieces of things here and there. And I usually try and like, I’ll test a corner of something.
00:29:46:22 – 00:30:02:13
Ellis
I got into map drawing because I started playing dad and I need match my table. So time to draw a map. I guess and then I discovered, holy crap, I need to do this for the rest of my life. I’m obsessed with this or like, you know, try a game of Daddy with your friends, see if you like it.
00:30:02:13 – 00:30:17:01
Ellis
Or there are other tabletop systems. There’s more than just dandy. I’m just gonna put that out there. Daddy is not the only one. There’s so many there. Yeah, I play a lot of them, and they make me happy, but, like, just. Just try it. The answer. Just try it. Like, you don’t need to spend a lot of money on it either.
00:30:17:01 – 00:30:31:08
Ellis
Like, borrow something from a friend, go to the library and borrow from the library of things there. Or, like, take a take a like a pottery class, like one class at a local studio. Like, you can try a bunch of stuff without spending a lot of money on it, too.
00:30:31:08 – 00:30:47:22
Arianna
And man, we do not give libraries enough credit because like, in a sense, so stupid because like I’ve always been there, right? But I always forget. And then I’ll be like, man, I’m a little overbudget this month, but I really want to get this book. And then my husband will be like, Have you checked to see if the library has it?
00:30:47:22 – 00:30:54:09
Arianna
And I’m like, Oh, that’s a thing. And you come in. So many libraries have it now. So it’s not just books.
00:30:54:09 – 00:31:07:24
Ellis
Like there’s a little recording studio in it. It’s got like a little soundproof box, and I’m going to be going to do audio book reading and like make a podcast and it’s right, like it’s nuts. What they have in there these days. You have everything.
00:31:08:01 – 00:31:11:00
Arianna
Go check your local library. That is insane.
00:31:11:00 – 00:31:25:17
Ellis
I did not need that. That’s so cool. Like, not all of them have it. Like your local library might have other things but a lot of them have a library of things to like. Yeah, I know somebody who has looms that they’ve checked out from the library to try weaving me to the library looms like leaving.
00:31:25:17 – 00:31:31:13
Arianna
Like you mentioned games, and I know that there are tabletop gear. Some of them have us that you can rent games. There’s, there’s.
00:31:31:14 – 00:31:48:00
Ellis
Video games like you can rent video games from the library for video games. Systems like all kinds of stuff. If you want to try something, your local library either has a resource where they know that someone can do it, they have the resource themselves, or they will find a way to make it happen because they love doing that kind of stuff.
00:31:48:00 – 00:31:50:04
Ellis
They’re enablers of the worst and best kind.
00:31:50:10 – 00:32:05:12
Arianna
Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. We do not give like I this was not the point, but we do not give enough love to our local libraries. Please check into your local library before you buy things, especially if you have ADHD because there’s a good chance you’ll buy it. You’ll like it for three months then you’re gonna want to give up.
00:32:05:12 – 00:32:06:00
Arianna
So you.
00:32:06:00 – 00:32:11:15
Ellis
Know, right? They also do like a bunch of free classes. Like, I have a friend who does weaving demonstrations at her library.
00:32:11:15 – 00:32:13:16
Arianna
Knitting demonstration, too. Yeah, very true.
00:32:14:09 – 00:32:34:24
Ellis
Huge list of free classes. So you can try and dabble all the things. I recently did an author fest panel at my local library. It was free for authors. They just walked in and I was I presented and there were a bunch of published authors. They’re talking about different aspects of publishing and writing and all this stuff. It was a whole thing and it was free and it was amazing.
00:32:35:06 – 00:32:57:20
Arianna
And if you’re watching this or listening to this from a writer’s perspective, y’all writers groups, even just lately, like constructive criticism groups love to meet at libraries and they will meet in like a library meeting room and go over each other’s work. And it’s that was one of my favorite parts of when I was younger. My dad and I both write and we would go to these things together.
00:32:57:20 – 00:32:58:17
Arianna
There’s so much fun.
00:32:59:01 – 00:33:07:10
Ellis
So, so brief plug. I run a a writing group on Facebook for an hour. Divergent people specifically. It’s called the Nerd Divergent Writers Lounge.
00:33:07:14 – 00:33:09:12
Arianna
Why don’t I just find out this thing.
00:33:09:13 – 00:33:14:03
Ellis
About I don’t know, it seems like you’re finding out all the new things today, like, oh, this.
00:33:14:04 – 00:33:30:05
Arianna
Doesn’t tell me anything is what this is turning into this video is is I’m changing the title to Alice doesn’t tell me anything because none of this like I’m just sitting here going, you do? Oh, wait. I was know that already. Oh, yeah. This one begs.
00:33:31:01 – 00:33:37:01
Ellis
I I’m a weird and varied nerd of multiple flavors. Like, I don’t expect you to know everything. Like, I.
00:33:38:09 – 00:33:38:18
Arianna
Know.
00:33:38:24 – 00:33:41:06
Ellis
I’m an iceberg of weird nerd shit.
00:33:42:00 – 00:33:49:05
Arianna
You’re going to have to send me the link for that. Not just so I can put it in the video description, but also so that I can go join. I’d love to. Absolutely.
00:33:49:10 – 00:33:58:11
Ellis
There’s also a bunch of nerdy virgin editors that hang out there, too. So if you’re writing a book and would like to connect with an editor who understands neuro divergence, that’s a good place to do it.
00:33:58:16 – 00:33:58:24
Arianna
That would be.
00:33:59:10 – 00:34:06:06
Ellis
And I run a discord writing group that’s not specifically for narrative virgins, but it’s just a collection of writers. I’ll give you links.
00:34:06:12 – 00:34:10:08
Arianna
Ellis has tried to sell me on Discord. I’m still not sure I’m sold yet, but.
00:34:10:14 – 00:34:14:24
Ellis
It’s like AOL and Forums had a baby.
00:34:16:07 – 00:34:19:15
Arianna
Dog I got them started stuff outside the post.
00:34:19:16 – 00:34:23:12
Ellis
At no time. I will preach the gospel of discord forever.
00:34:23:15 – 00:34:27:21
Arianna
Discord Forever. As soon as I mentioned it, it turns into a sermon I didn’t.
00:34:28:10 – 00:34:29:10
Ellis
Can I get an amen?
00:34:32:00 – 00:34:53:03
Arianna
So before we we call this out, I’m actually going to do yet another plug that I think Alice will agree with me on. We we met actually through centered and I have talked about centered on this channel before. It is an amazing tool for people who are near or divergent. It is a great it’s a Pomodoro timer it’s like for music, it’s a community.
00:34:53:10 – 00:34:59:07
Ellis
Yeah. It’s a key part of my writing process. And I run a group on there for narrative writers also.
00:34:59:18 – 00:35:13:04
Arianna
And you guys already know that. I also have a group on there for people with ADHD, and that’s just a catch all pretty. But if you are a neuro divergent writer, Alice’s group is also available and I will have the link for that and then description you guys.
00:35:13:12 – 00:35:14:03
Ellis
It’s amazing.
00:35:14:03 – 00:35:15:11
Arianna
We love that there.
00:35:15:13 – 00:35:18:12
Ellis
So my dogs fast tracking.
00:35:18:20 – 00:35:33:05
Arianna
Fast and tracking and connect the connection to your, your, your calendar. Like there is just so much there to love and we both just really feel like more people should be using it. So also.
00:35:33:16 – 00:35:34:03
Ellis
Amazing.
00:35:34:08 – 00:35:42:04
Arianna
Yeah. So also please check into the description figure out which one of these you want to join. And we’re.
00:35:42:04 – 00:35:43:22
Ellis
Doing both. Yeah, you could run both.
00:35:43:22 – 00:35:45:14
Arianna
Why not? And it’s free to join.
00:35:45:14 – 00:36:07:20
Ellis
So the guy who made it like Stephen and Michael, they’re just some of the nicest people and they’re out there. Like when I first connected with him about being one of the people who presents it, presented it minority Virgin Publishing Summit, which happened to, you know, a couple of months ago and will be happening next year. He was like, you know, I’ve been talking to people and hearing more that, like, ADHD, people sort of use this app.
00:36:07:20 – 00:36:14:15
Ellis
Can you tell me about neuro divergence? And then he’s just all in like it didn’t take long for him to be like, all right, let’s let’s help these.
00:36:14:17 – 00:36:16:15
Arianna
They legitimately care. They look at.
00:36:16:15 – 00:36:24:06
Ellis
Me, listen, like you need you need X accessibility tools and stuff. They they want to be there and add them for you. And the answer, it’s amazing.
00:36:24:10 – 00:36:40:16
Arianna
It is an amazing, amazing tool. And we really would love to see them succeed. So if you guys are listening to this or watching this, please check it out for sure. Else I’m going to make sure they have all the links description. But why don’t you use kind of tell people upfront how they can keep in touch with you?
00:36:41:02 – 00:37:01:07
Ellis
Oh, I have. I’ve got a card length that I’ll give you. I’ve got a newsletter, I’ve got a sub stack, I have Facebook pages I’m at age four, real ski, and like all the social media platforms, ticktock, Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, all of the things. And like, I’ll give you a there’s a link probably down in description with my card, which has all of the stuff.
00:37:01:16 – 00:37:03:17
Arianna
Which is probably a lot easier. Yeah.
00:37:04:05 – 00:37:11:03
Ellis
Yeah. Like trying to remember like the problem is like I have all these things but my brain, you ask me and my brain does a forum for like Pong.
00:37:12:06 – 00:37:13:02
Arianna
I don’t remember.
00:37:13:15 – 00:37:17:08
Ellis
Does anybody get a hold of me ever? Do I exist? What am I doing here? Who are you.
00:37:17:21 – 00:37:20:08
Arianna
Why are you asking? Who am I? Where am I? Yeah.
00:37:21:00 – 00:37:21:11
Ellis
Yeah.
00:37:22:08 – 00:37:23:09
Arianna
So I’ll just add that.
00:37:23:09 – 00:37:24:08
Ellis
To the description of.
00:37:24:08 – 00:37:39:01
Arianna
That. Thank you so much for joining me. This was a blast as always. We always have a great time talking and yeah, if you guys have any extra questions for Alex that I can forward on through with him in the comments and take care yourselves. Drink lots of water I will see you in the next video.
